Pay And Classification Budget Proposal Updates With Grassroots Wildland Firefighters & NFFE
Wildland firefighting is a difficult but necessary job, and the Grassroots Wildland Firefighters Union (GWFF) and National Federation of Federal Employees Union (NFFE) have made it their mission to bring about changes for better pay and classification for wildland firefighters. Wildland firefighting can be incredibly dangerous and there's no room for error on the line, yet wildland firefighters often don't receive adequate compensation for their efforts. The proposed budget changes under consideration could help bring much-needed relief to our nation’s wildland firefighters.
Wildland firefighters have been pushing for a better pay and classification structure for years. Hear from the Grassroots Wildland Firefighters and NFFE about the latest fiscal year 2024 federal budget proposal updates and what they mean for the future of wildland firefighting... In this episode, we catch up with the Grassroots Wildland Firefighters and National Federation of Federal Employees Union to get the latest on their efforts to secure better pay and classification.
Wildland Firefighters put their lives on the line every summer in order to protect our national public lands. Learn how you can support Wildland Firefighter Pay Increases and show your appreciation for Wildland Firefighters. If you want to support these men and women, you can do the following:
Sign petitions, email your local representatives, share Wildland Firefighter stories, donate to Wildland Firefighter organizations, make your voice heard, contact Wildland Firefighter organizations, and reach out to Wildland Firefighters near you.
Wildland Firefighters are a much needed, yet under-appreciated workforce... Let's show our support for them by supporting these Wildland Firefighter Pay increases.
Featured guests on this episode:
Lucas Mayfield - Grassroots Wildland Firefighters President
Randy Irwin - NFFE National President
Max Alonzo - NFFE Western Region Business Manager
Yvette Piacsek - NFFE Deputy General Counsel
Thanks for listening!
The Anchor Point Podcast is supported by the following amazing folks:
Mystery Ranch
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Not sponsors of The Anchor Point Podcast, but great organizations:
The Wildland Firefighter Foundation
And, as always, please consider supporting this great nonprofit organization - The Wildland Firefighter Foundation!
The A.W.E.
Wanna get some history and knowledge on Wildland Fire? Hit up The Smokey Generation!
http://wildfire-experience.org
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Pay And Classification Budget Proposal Updates With Grassroots Wildland Firefighters & NFFE
This episode is brought to you by Mystery Ranch, built for the mission. If you haven't been rocking one of their Wildland Fire Packs for your career, it probably sucks, especially on your shoulders and back. I always say that every damn time that I do one of these ad insertions for Mystery Ranch, and let's talk about the brass tack of why I believe in Mystery Ranch so much.
Yes, they are a sponsor, but let's cut the crap and get to the chase. The reason why I believe in Mystery Ranch in what they are doing and how much they support the boots on the ground is that they do exactly that. They are not full of crap. They give a damn. For every little pack that is out there in the Wildland game, there is a ton of other stuff that is going on behind the scenes to support you folks in the field even more.
Take a look at the Backbone Series. They are giving out $1,000 scholarships for improving your career and life. Some of the folks over there are involved with Grassroots. It is pretty badass. Some of them even started it. Even Dana Gleason, the OG Founder of Mystery Ranch, went out of his way to go down to SoCal to work with Hotshot crews to develop the packs that you guys and girls out there in the field are wearing. If that doesn't speak volumes about the passion that they have for Wildland Firefighters, I don't know what to tell you.
With that being said, after all I have said, they are good folks, they believe in you, and they support you. That is why I am gracious that they are a sponsor of the show. If you want to find out more, go over to www.MysteryRanch.com, and check out the Backbone Series and all of the other load-bearing essentials that they have to offer.
We have our coffee sponsor because we all know that the show can't come to live unless it is done in a caffeinated state. The people I rely on for my caffeination are none other than Hotshot Brewing. It is a kickass coffee for a kickass cause. A portion of the proceeds will always go back to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation and some other causes. They are working on it. There might be some other stuff in the works there. If you want the best kickass coffee for kickass causes, go over to www.HotshotBrewing.com. It doesn't stop there. You can go over there and get your full line of Wildland Firefighter-themed apparel and all of the tools of the trade to get your mornings started right.
I’ve got to give a quick little shout-out to my buddy, Booze, over at The A.S.S. Movement. That stands for the Anti-Surface Shitting Movement. Homie is a firefighter up there in AK. H is doing the good deed of spreading boo-bearing propaganda across the globe. I don’t know about everybody out there that is reading, but I hate it when I see a surface turd or someone doesn't clean up the wreckage left behind their human excrement, and it is disgusting, and that crap needs to stop.
Not only is he one of my close homies, and we work together on some other projects, he got a good mission. It all started from humble beginnings, which you can ask him all about. If you have it over to www.TheFireWild.com and check out The A.S.S. Movement and use the code, AnchorPointASS10, at checkout. You can save 10% off your entire order through The A.S.S. Movement.
I would like to give a little shout-out to my homie Bethany over at The AWE, The American Wildfire Experience, also known as The Smokey Generation. You probably heard of it because they are paying it back for the people paying it forward. What do I mean by this? The folks that are telling the story of wildland fire. I don't know if you have heard, but you should have by now if you have ever read any of these episodes.
The Smokey Generation has given out $500 grants for those folks in the field that are telling the story of wildland fire. It is an awesome cause, and it is only bettering the boots on the ground. If you want to find out more, go over to www.Wildfire-Experience.org and check it out. There are a ton of stories and content. Some of these stories date even back to the 1940s. It is like an oral history and storytelling project. It is all cataloged over at the American Wildfire Experience.
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It has been a while. I have been on a little bit of a brief hiatus. I hope that everybody is doing well. I hope everybody is in shape and ready to go for this wildland fire season. Some of you out there has been a wildfire year, especially with the off-district tours and assignments back east this winter. That is nice rolling into the season with a little bit of change in your pockets and a little bit of training.
Other than that, we have some big news to share. The title of this episode should be what the content is going to be about. What we are going to do is invite Grassroots Wildland Firefighters and the National Federation of Federal Employees to the show. We are talking about the President's fiscal year 24 pay bumps that are a part of the projected or proposed presidential spending and budget for fiscal year 24.
There is a lot of stuff that is related to Tim's act in there. If you want to find out, we are still looking through the fine minute details. We are trying to figure out where all this stuff gets into place. If you want to find out what is on the horizon and what is in that, this is the episode for you. Without further ado, I would like to introduce the Grassroots Wildland Firefighters and some representatives from the National Federation of Federal Employees. Welcome to the show.
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We’ve got some special announcements and updates. We want to hear about all of the news on Capitol Hill. What better people to have in this conversation than the people that are implementing this change and directing that change? We have Grassroots Wildland Firefighters and the National Federation of Federal Employees. You have seen them around the social media channels and all the things they have been doing. They have some news to share with everybody. First off, I like to introduce Max. Take it away.
I’m Max Alonzo. I'm with the National Federation of Federal Employees. I'm one of the business reps here. I took the lead on a lot of the Land Management, Forest Service, BLM, and other departments. When I came on several years ago with NFFE, I wanted to focus on wildland fire issues. I spent my career with the Forest Service. I have seen these issues for a lot of years. That is where I'm at. Randy Irwin is our President. He has been extremely supportive of all of the stuff that we have been wanting to do. He has been hitting the hill himself, talking to people, and working on things. We got a great coalition. I'm going to let it go to Randy now.
I want to thank the show for bringing us on. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. Grassroots Wildland Firefighters do tremendous work. We are happy and proud to have you guys as partners and doing all we can to better the lives of Wildland Firefighters. I'm the National President and NFFE. I'm proud of the work that we do. We represent 10,000 Wildland Firefighters across the country, mainly in the Forest Service, but a little bit in a few other agencies.
2022 was a defining year. It is exciting what we accomplished and what a tremendous group effort. It was a landmark. We are getting a tremendous increase in pay, which is, first and foremost, what we hear the most about, and what leads to many other problems with Wildland Firefighters. As everybody knows, the great provisions that we got in that stimulus package there a couple of years back were only for a few years.
We are in the final year already. How fast time flies. We got a big job ahead of us. This is the highest priority that we have as a union. Wildland Firefighters are our bread and butter. We have a great opportunity to lock in these changes that we got on a temporary basis. We are life-changing. We got to get them permanent. There is a long list of other things that we got to get done on top of that.
Wildland firefighters are our bread and butter. We have a great opportunity to lock in these changes that we got on a temporary basis.
I'm excited because there is such a tremendous movement happening here. I feel it. I see it every day. That movement of Wildland Firefighters standing up and demanding that they see changes need to happen. We all know what they are. It is incredible. Sometimes it is hard to get people's attention in Washington. We have been able to do that. We got their ear. I'm proud to say that it is a bipartisan thing. The administration heads us, and they did a lot in 2022, particularly in letting those pay raises go nationwide instead of focusing on a few areas and other areas getting screwed. That would have been terrible. They listened to us.
I'm a little bit connected in Washington. I got to meet the President. When the President's budget came out, I got a one-on-one briefing from Secretary Vilsack to go through all the pieces that were impacting Wildland Firefighter. This administration is proud of what they have been able to accomplish on the Wildland Fire. They consider it one of their crowning achievements. That is great because if they are happy about what happened in 2022, and they think that is a feather in their cap, they are more likely to do it again and push for it. That is good.
On Capitol Hill, we got a truly bipartisan approach to what we are doing, which isn't always the case. In 2022, we got standalone legislation passed unanimously in Congress for people under 6C that got injured on the job. They didn't get their early retirement taken away. That was a big heavy lift that took a couple of decades, but we finally got it done in 2022, and we got it done unanimously. 407 votes to 0 in the House. That doesn't happen in this day and age.
That is key because that means everybody views what we are doing, what this movement is, and what it represents. It has complete bipartisan appeal. That is part of the battle. That is a lot of things that other interests will not have, but we have, and we got to take advantage of them. We got a lot of important work to do in 2023. We got to keep this movement going. We do not want to get to this cliff that is coming at the end of this fiscal year and have people's pay fall back to what it was before. As disastrous as it was before the pay raise went up, I can't imagine how bad it would be if we get to that point and have to go through that again, especially if we had to go through it for a year or more.
We do have our work cut out for us in 2023. I'm glad we have you all as partners to make that happen. I encourage everybody. We need every single person to get engaged in this fight. Hopefully, they join these organizations here but also become engaged and get plugged in because we’ve got to have a strategy to get to every member of Congress and make sure they are supporting the Wildland Firefighters. If we do that, we will have success.
Wildland Firefighters Pay: We need every single person to get in this fight, hopefully, join these organizations here, but, at the same, become engaged and get plugged in. We got to have a strategy to get to every member of Congress and make sure they're supporting the wildland firefighters. If we do that, we'll have success.
The President's budget is great for Wildland Firefighters, with $568 billion in total in new spending for Wildland Firefighters. That number comes out to $57,000 per Wildland Firefighter. That is locking in the pay, getting more boots on the ground, housing, portal-to-portal, and mental health. That is a good package. That is not where it ends.
Wildland Firefighters have been ignored in Washington for decades. You don't get all the way in one year, but this is one heck of a start. We got to go up to Capitol Hill, get this, and continue to make the case for more. It will be a multi-year effort, but this would be one heck of a start. We need everybody involved in that fight because it is a big heavy lift. If we do it, we will be stronger. We will get some great things done, and there will be no stopping us going forward.
Thank you, Randy. He brings up a good point there. The ‘shut up and dig’ mentality is over, and it shows. Thanks to efforts through the boots on the ground, directly funneled upwards to the upper echelons of leadership through these two organizations right here. That being the NFFE, National Federation of Federal Employees, and Grassroots Wildland Firefighters. That name alluded to what all of you have been doing on Capitol Hill. Moving on to introductions, Yvette, go ahead and take it away.
I'm Yvette Piacsek. I'm also with NFFE. I am the Deputy General Counsel in NFFE’s Office of General Counsel. I have been in the role for several years now. I have been a lawyer fighting for Federal employees for several years. Since I have come to NFFE, I have dug into your Wildland Firefighters issues. There is an incredible work happening now. Thank goodness we have Grassroots Wildland Firefighters doing a lot of heavy lifting over the years. We are happy to work alongside them and all of you.
The wide view of my role is you all are the union. I know some of you can't be in the union, or your forest isn't unionized yet. You should get unionized. If I am not speaking for the people I represent, which is Wildland Fire and I'm not doing my job. I love my job every day because I hear what you guys are going through. We are making real change. It is happening fast, and the stars are aligned. It is because many people have put so much work into this. We can make mountains move a whole lot faster with everybody coming together like you have in 2022. I believe that people standing up for themselves has made a huge difference. I'm glad to be part of this team.
If I am not speaking for the people I represent, which is wildland fire, then I'm not doing my job.
I'm new to Wildland Firefighter issues. When I speak, I want to speak your language. You all have to educate me. I got a lot of great leaders out there and a lot of support within our union ranks. We got Andy Vanderheuel, Steven Gutierrez, Mark Muñoz, Aaron Kidwell, and Hobie Miller. They get it. I'm in regular daily conversation with all of them. That helps us push through what we got to get pushed through because I'm the one who has conversations with OPM about the occupational series.
Through those conversations, we came to know that we got to get Randy to contact Secretary Vilsack to get them to process this pay. I am the master of relationships with the executive branch for NFFE. It has been great. A lot more work to do, but I need every single one of you out there to tell your stories, amplify it, push stuff out on Instagram and what you are doing. I will keep doing what I'm doing. There is going to be no stopping us. Poor Luke hasn't even had a chance to say hi to everybody yet. Let me pass it over to my brother, Luke.
I appreciate the opportunity. My name is Luke Mayfield. I'm the President of Grassroots Wildland Firefighters and one of the Cofounders. When this started several years ago, the intent was to provide a platform that allowed for self-advocacy and cohesion across organizations. A great indicator of that happening is this call with NFFE and Grassroots. We formed, as Max alluded to, a fantastic coalition amongst any party.
Grassroots is an advocate for advocacy. We don't care how it is done. We want to see us cross the finish line and see the results at the end that allows Federal Wildland Firefighters to enter the career and exit as whole and healthy human beings as possible. We know it is a difficult job. Grassroots is a huge supporter and advocate for congressional approval of the FY24 President's budget. We are extremely grateful for the budget proposal as provided. We also want clarification.
Before we make an educated and informed push for the masses to advocate behind, there are points of clarification that we are seeking before we start disseminating that information. I can go into those as allowed. If anyone else has anything, I will hand it over. The Federal Fire family is amazing. It has been my priority for the majority of my adult life, and the change that has happened from 2019 to now through budget and infrastructure is historic. The FY24 proposal is historic, but we do want clarification.
All these people in this conversation have done a hell of a lot. It is through the direction of the boots on the ground. With that being said, let's try and get into some of the finer things that we have been told and briefed on from a congressional level. The last thing I want to do is go into this conversation with some level of hearsay or speculation. I want to try and remove that.
I know the details are going to be inherently limited because we don't have all of the specifics. However, there are some big important movements happening on Capitol Hill. It is directly going to affect the Wildland Firefighters on the ground. That pay parody, classification, and retirement benefits, all that stuff is a huge thing. People have been fighting for this as long as the Forest Service has been around. Ever since that pay gap and the inflation outpacing the risks and the amount of risk that we take on, it is not measured anymore. What can we talk about? What can't we talk about? Are there any topics that you guys want to bring up right away and put out there on the floor?
I can go over what Grassroots is seeking clarification on directly if that works for the NFFE representatives. We support the FY24 budget proposal. We are grateful. We recognize, and we are thankful to the agency leaders across the USDA and DOI for providing the inputs that have contributed to this proposal. What we were seeking clarification on and asked directly is we are asking for the exact pay tables that specifically show the pay rates from what we understand are a 36% increase at the GS-3 level to a 1.5% increase at the GS-15 level. We would like clarification or information available that compares this permanent pay table to the bill supplement that was $20,000 or 50% of the annual salary and the justifications or considerations that were used to create this 36% to 1.5% raised scale.
To clarify for the folks out there reading, that is the GS-3 through GS-15 level. That is a sliding scale that goes up to GS-15. The GS-15s would be on the lowest, the 1.5% raise.
We understand it from the releases that have come out. GS-3 would be receiving a 36% increase. GS-15s are 1.5%. What does it look like in the middle? What is the comparison or the justification for it as compared to the budget and infrastructure that was $20,000 or 50% of that? We would like a further definition of portal-to-portal premium pay. Is this differential? Does this account for the hours of rest that are not coded as base pay or overtime? Is it classified as premium and or coded as a differential? Will it be available for local assignments and initial attacks? What are the criteria for people to secure portal-to-portal on their home unit while on local assignment, resource order, P-code, and how will dispatchers secure portal-to-portal?
The next point that we wouldn't necessarily like clarification on, but people will need to be aware of, is that the implementation between DOI and the US Forest Service or USDA is going to be different because of the impacts that are going to occur on positive education requirements. The Forest Service, as we understand it, has received an extension on the classification portion to December of 2023 to ensure that classification is investigated and pulled off as appropriately as possible because it is got to be done right, and right takes time. The extension is not a bad thing.
We would like clarification of what we understand from the USDA or US Forest Service approach is that classification is different from personnel management. Personnel management includes position description modernization. Does that happen with the extension, or is it still an intended effort that is going to happen after a classification?
The last thing and I think this is huge. A part of the FY24 budget appropriates $10 million per agency per year-over-year funding comprehensive health and well-being programs. That is necessary needed and mandatory for the well-being of our folks. The root cause of the need for that, in my opinion and perspective, is the workload and expectations that exist for the workforce. We strongly believe that the work-to-rest ratio needs to be investigated at a much larger level to include and look at fire seasons and fire careers, not operational shifts and 16 on and 18 off.
Wildland Firefighters Pay: We strongly believe that the work-to-rest ratio needs to be investigated at a much larger level to include and look at fire seasons and fire careers, not just operational shifts.
We want to advocate across the board for that investigation and a new work schedule that allows for the actual work-life balance and not the catchphrase work-life balance. That is Grassroots. We support the agency's attempts and intent. We are grateful for the communication that we have had with the agencies. We see the budget proposal as imperative and historic. It needs to be approved by Congress intact with everything that is being asked for. It is a step. We need more first steps, advocacy, everyone at the table, and a coalition amongst all organizations involved in this. I can't thank NFFE enough. It has been a pleasure getting to work with you, improve relationships, and get tattoos in Reno.
It is the updates on Grassroots’ point of view on this pay and classification package, this budget proposal for fiscal year 24. We are running into a wall here. We are going to run out. The fiscal year ends in October 2023 for the Federal budget. That is when they switch over to fiscal year 24. They better stomp on the gas or figure something out because I'm a little bit worried that it is not going to be implemented in time. What are your guys' perceptions of that on Capitol Hill? There is going to be some trepidation there, but what are your thoughts on it?
Are you talking about the timing of it?
Is this going to be like a slide into home plate at the last possible second to score a goal? Are we looking at a rapid acceleration and getting this thing on the plate to fix the problems?
1 of 2 things happens. Sometimes there is some emergency spending or a stimulus type thing. If there is a vehicle that moves, then there is a good chance that we would be able to get something attached to cover the gap because it is unlikely that we are going to have appropriations bills passed under a normal timeline. There are continuing resolutions every year.
We are destined for more conflict in Washington than less. I would not be optimistic. Everybody has to be prepared for the high likelihood that even if we get this done, there is going to be a period where you would get back pay in the new year once the budget gets passed. There would be a point where the pay would drop off and go to a lower level. That is highly likely. That is the process. There is little that we can do about that without some special vehicle to get it done.
If there is that opportunity, we all need to get on board. We all need to be writing our congressmen. We all need to be getting on the hill as much as possible and letting them know that this workforce is going to walk out the second if their checks are lower. They are going to lose, even if they make promises. Do you know how many people are sick of empty promises that they have had their whole careers? If they see their checks go down $700 a pay period, they are walking. They have better places to go. Places that will take care of them. We need to get that.
It is not our job. It is, but it is everybody. Everybody out there that got fire boots on needs to be calling their rep. They need to be writing letters. They need to be getting involved with these organizations. They need to be part of this. I can't stress that enough. We say it a lot. If you’ve got one person standing on the corner yelling, they look crazy. If you’ve got 1,000 people standing and yelling, you’ve got a movement.
Everybody that's got fire boots on needs to be calling their rep. They need to be writing letters. They need to be getting involved with these organizations. They need to be a part of this.
Max, it is important that we manage expectations because some things are not in our control. We are hard workers, but we are not miracle workers. I can't control the conflict that incurs in Washington. I can try to manage it and operate within it, but I can't change it. If we got those macro factors working against us and there is no vehicle to get some short-term reprieve to get us until to next calendar year or once those budget bills or appropriations get passed.
I don't want everybody to be mad at our organization when it is something we don't have any control over. We pulled a rabbit out of a hat to get this pay increase and everything that was in that stimulus bill a couple of years ago. Now, we got a good chance, and we will get it done to make these things permanent and move the ball a little bit further down the field, but we can't do things that are impossible. We are hard workers, but we are not miracle workers.
I'm saying if we have that opportunity, it always helps to have everybody involved.
We got about several months to make our case to Congress. We’ve got to get through to these folks that have the power now that this proposed budget is out there. It is their responsibility. All of us take this time over the next several months to share our stories. Your stories are compelling and do grab people's attention. If we can all move and contact Congress, we will get their attention. Even if they have to make some drastic compromise to pass a budget at the last minute, that is what we need them to do. We need them to know that we are not going to cut this fire budget proposal money. That is all I have to say. If anything, we will double or triple it.
This is not an area to compromise on. It is on all of us to relay that. NFFE, Grassroots, and Hotshot Association have been talking about how to strategize around this. We are all in full support of the budget. It is a pivot to mobilization. We are going to be leading that together with all of our groups to get every single person in fire involved to make the pay fix permanent before it lapses. As Muñoz says, “People will walk if it is not there.” America can't afford that.
This is not an area to compromise on, so it's on all of us to relay that.
That is a good thing about these two organizations at the Grassroots and NFFE. The folks that can unionize, hit up your local rep and try and get that ball moving because these guys are doing stuff on Capitol Hill that is pivotal to this whole cause. The people that can't or the people that want to support and support both functions at the same time, go hit up Grassroots at the same time. All of us are there. We are trying to get this ball across the finish line. We are third in goal or whatever stupid analogy you want to put out there, but it is there.
I understand that a lot of people need to set their expectations realistically. This stuff isn't going to be passed overnight like you are all saying. It would probably do some justice for the folks out there reading this blog to do some research into civics. Not a lot of people know how the inner workings of Congress, congressional sessions, budgets, and fiscal years work. We’ve got to navigate all of that stuff at the same time while trying to steer the direction of these bills.
The proposal is just the proposal. It is the baseline management formula for what they think they need. Congress always defers to that. They say, “The agency told us this is what they want.” Keep that in mind. We wanted all of this. They have reflected a lot of our advocacy in these numbers. These are higher numbers than we have seen in a long time, but it is still management's proposal. From what I was told, they had to do a lot of arm wrestling in back rooms to get some of this stuff.
We have this time to put forth what we think the proposal should be. This is great, and we support it. This is the floor. If we can, we will try and squeeze that all out a little bit more, but it is just a proposal. If this budget doesn't fit every single person, that is okay in a way because we are going to have future budgets and the master agreement. The union is bargaining the master agreement that covers all about the Forest Service. We are going to try and get a lot of good stuff for fire in there too. That is a way that we can try and work on issues that Congress can address, but management directly can. We engage with them directly. That is all I wanted to say about that.
I would elaborate a little bit. Where I think this fight is going to be at is when it boils down to it, it is the Republicans and the House of Representatives. That is where the work needs to be done. On the Republican side of the aisle, there are a lot of calls for cuts in spending, austerity-type measures, and fights that are way above our pay grades. We have nothing to do with it, and we can't change for that matter. At least on this issue, we need to separate what is being done with Wildland Fire from however they conceive of government spending and that being a bad thing and wanting to limit it.
We need them in their minds to separate Wildland Fire from that. The way we do that is by engaging them with their constituents at home because there are many people in Washington or organizations. They front and pretend. They got all these hundreds of thousands of people. The truth is it is a paper tiger. They are not in touch with these people. They are not real. They can't talk, meet, or engage them. What is a little bit different about our organizations is we do speak to them. We do represent and have contact with people in these areas.
You are bridging that gap between us and the upper echelons of government, both organizations, Grassroots and NFFE.
We’ve got to get to those Republican offices on the house side and separate the bigger thing of government spending from what is happening with this. This is a tiny little sliver. This is a multitrillion-dollar budget and we are talking about a little $568 million. It is life-changing. There is no reason why anybody on any side of the aisle shouldn't be in support of this.
That is where we have the work to do. We got to do it soon because this ball started to roll. They start in the house. They take up the budgets first. You got these subcommittees of the appropriation committees and stuff. They start putting these budgets together and making decisions. The ultimate decisions aren't made until much later on in the part process. They have been bundling them all into these big omnibus appropriations bills.
You still got to do the work early on before the die becomes cast. They are hacking away at what they consider big spending that the president is doing, and this is being lumped in with that. We got to get to them early and separate ourselves. The Republicans in the House view this as something they need support in the president's budget.
Holding our ground is a community. That is going to be important. There are a lot of tools out there. Luke, you could probably expand on this a little bit with some of the tools that we have that have preformed letters of support that go to your senators or your representatives' mailboxes and inboxes, or their staffers at least. It is not like these people in Congress who are reading their emails but still going to their staffers. They are getting those messages. Luke, do you want to talk about that a little bit?
We want to flood the system with a cohesive and unified approach across organizations and ensure folks are educated and moving in the same direction, north to south, not coming at it from east to west, while 70% of the movement is going north to south. Grassroots, once we have the clarification, we have the tools on our website. You join campaigns, and those will start being populated. It is as simple as 5 to 6 clicks. Those go directly to your state representatives and Federal representatives with the same distinct and cohesive message.
Wildland Firefighters Pay: We want to flood the system with a cohesive and unified approach across organizations and ensure folks are educated and moving in the same direction.
To add to what Randy, Max, and Yvette have said, the beauty of this is there is bipartisan support. There is no bipartisan support across the board for all things that are going on in Congress. Some of that is out of our control. There are unforeseen obstacles that we are going to have to overcome. The way we overcome that is by coming together, spreading the word in a unified manner, and trying to reach that same end state. We are doing that. We have been successful. Look at the change that has happened since 2019.
I spent several years with the Forest Service. Most of the time, I sat on a hillside with my buddy, talking about what needed to happen. It is happening. It is awesome. It is not perfect. We have the ability to influence it. This is a proposal. We have the floor. We can make it right. We will tailor our campaigns. We will share those campaigns. Grassroots doesn't take any of the credit. The credit belongs to everybody, multiple organizations above and beyond that, the boots on the ground, the people putting Nomex pants on 8-inch plus leather boots. I hope you don't stag your pants if you are out there.
Our job, Grassroots, from our perspective, we are going to arm everyone with the information necessary and the tools needed to easily and cohesively influence legislators to do the right thing. That is the most important part of this crap. It is bipartisan, and it is the right thing. For multiple decades, we have had extremely quiet professionals that have suffered in quiet and not said crap. Over this past short while, in reality, several years, people aren't being quiet. People are speaking up for the best in the brightest. Within the agency and outside of the agencies are starting to paint the picture of what right looks like. We have the right ears, and we have to continue that.
Over the past several years, more has happened for the benefit of the Wildland Firefighting community than over the last many years. These movements do work. Look at how much everybody has done out there. That is not including Grassroots and NFFE. That is every Wildland Firefighter out there who is tooting that horn or amplifying voices. It is incredible but one thing at a time.
We’ve got the bipartisan infrastructure law passed. It is a law now, but that has an expiration date. For this new budget proposal, let's talk about some of the things that were proposed in it. Can we do that? There are not a lot of specifics we can talk about, but what are some of the things that were proposed there? You mentioned portal-to-portal. We can start with that if you guys want to.
Brandon, I’ve got to take off here.
Randy, thank you for joining us. I appreciate it.
Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for all you guys do.
Thanks, Randy. See you.
Do you guys feel comfortable asking the portal-to-portal question? That is going to be one of those elephant-in-the-room questions that a lot of people reading this want to know what was proposed. This is not a guarantee of what is going to come out. Let me be explicitly clear about that. What was proposed?
I have it in front of me if you want me to spiel it off, Max and Yvette. This is Forest Service, but in all respects in relation to the workforce, it is similar to DOI, what I'm about to spout off. Firefighter compensation reform in the President's budget, $180 million. The funding will allow the agency to implement a new pay structure for firefighters. That includes a special pay rate salary table for all firefighters, 1 through 15. It is a sliding scale starting at 36% and going to 1.5%.
We are seeking clarification on what that is and what the justification is between that sliding scale and what bill is offered in the $20,000 to 50%. Included in this also is portal-to-portal pay for 24 hours while on fire assignment. We are still looking for clarification on the definition of portal-to-portal pay, premium pay differential, and 50% of the base. Does it occur for the 8 hours you are sleeping after 8 hours of base and 8 hours of overtime?
The maintenance of hazard pay. Hazard pay will still exist. There are people that are poking holes in this already. We need clarification and a comparison between the bill and this. I do want to note that it might have been several years ago. OPM wrote a response to the USDA talking about what had to do with pay raises. At that time, OPM's stance in writing to a couple of different senators. Was 4.5% raise for Federal Wildland Firefighters too expensive? Think of that movement from a raise that potentially starts at 36%, and decades ago, 4.5% with a bunch of quiet professionals that weren't talking was too expensive. A lot has shifted. We are not saying it is right, but we need clarification to explain it to folks.
Increase in wildland fire management salary and expenses, $69 million will go towards the cost of living increase, which to my knowledge is at 4.7%, and $259 million for firefighter capacity increase allows for the potential to hire if you can find the bodies 970 more firefighters and to include the use of hiring in retention incentives. This will allow the agency to continue the progress of creating a more full-time, year-round workforce.
I will go back to the point of clarification. We want work to rest definition expanded to include fire seasons and fire careers, not operational assignments. We do not want to see the attempt to squeeze more blood out of the same stone and come back to the same ship that we are on, where we are dealing with people that are broken, hurt, suicidal, alcoholic, depressed, and facing mental health issues. We need that work-life balance, and flexibility is the root cause of many issues that are being faced from my perspective.
Wildland Firefighters Pay: We need that work-life balance, and flexibility is the root cause of many issues that are currently being faced.
For firefighters' mental health and well-being, there was a down payment of $120 million to stand up a joint comprehensive health and well-being program across agencies. Initially, they thought the year-over-year cost to support that would be in the $4 million to $5 million range. After investigating it, it is in the $20 million range. The credit goes to the agencies that have come together to push for this crap because the Forest Service is requesting $10 million in DOI to support this program on a year-over-year basis. It is needed.
In my perspective, as a person, not Grassroots, this is the attempt to provide something after something is broken. We have to set up a system that sets people up for success, doesn't take care of them after they are broken. We still need it. It is imperative. Folks are hurting. Things are messed up. We got to have this. We also have to have a system that sets people up for success.
Firefighter housing of $50 million. We have been told that this funding will be protected. The funding allows for urgent and necessary firefighter housing, facility maintenance, and repair. On the DOI side, it is $22 million. Total of $77 million to ensure that the rat-infested houses you live in have the opportunity to become rodent-free and livable.
That’s another thing is the deferment process with maintenance. Is that something that is going to be protected? Is that a deferred maintenance program? That is going to be something that is not going to be able to be done anymore with this new proposal.
I can't speak to that. I am sure there are all sorts of gray areas and side doors to do whatever you want. What we have been told with the money requested in the FY24 President's budget, the $50 million and $22 million, respectively, are protected and will go towards housing improvements or the construction of housing.
I have to say this because I don't think it gets said enough. People within the agency want to see positive change for Federal Wildland Firefighters. I know I spent a crapload of my career talking crap about the people I thought were not doing anything. These people that we are speaking to in the fire and aviation management team, OWF, or whoever it is, the effort is being put out there to provide true change. This budget is an indicator of it, the housing, and the acknowledgment.
They are taking what NFFE and Grassroots have said, the identified pillars. They do have your back, but there is a lot of crap that goes into this. At the beginning of Grassroots, we thought we could stand up a web website that educated people and provide a white paper about a paradigm shift. Everybody was going to take that because it was a good idea and make crap happen. Several years later, I'm on a podcast with all of you amazing people.
There are still barriers out there that were tripping across and trying to knock down. It is going to take a lot more of this to make what we need out there. I have the same slide as you, Luke. Thank you for going through the details. If it is okay with everybody, I want to make a couple of comments. This is the budget proposal. They rolled this out and invited us to have a call to celebrate like, “We heard you. Isn't this great?” We started immediately started asking some tough questions. All the questions that Luke said at the beginning of this, that Grassroots has, NFFE has them too. We started to ask some of them, and they don't know yet.
We are going to stay on them. We are going to see, as time goes on, what information they can share with us. One thing they told us was they were going to put out a public release with the draft legislation that would implement this proposed budget language. They said it was supposed to come out. I haven't seen it yet, but that was supposed to include the actual salary table for the special base rate. We are dying to see that. As soon as it is in my grabby little pause, we will blast it. Through this network, we will be able to comb through it with a fine tooth comb and find out what we need to know. If it passes, it is implemented appropriately. They were screwed up early in how they issued the pay from the Infrastructure Bill.
I hope we can avoid those same hiccups by having better communication and anticipating more than the people did when they were trying to figure out how to do the infrastructure pay bump. They didn't give us any specifics worth relaying on that call. We don't have the special pay rate table and draft legislation. The devil is going to be in those details, as Luke said. We are asking the same questions. We are hand in glove in this to find out because they are the firefighters' questions.
It is out of the agency’s hands. Am I correct, Yvette? It is sitting with OMB that needs to vet there if I go through their process and say yay or nay.
There are a lot of people involved. It is primarily the legislative folks. There is some OMB wrangling that has to happen. They are the bean counters of the Federal government. They see these giant numbers that haven't been in past budgets and they have to be convinced. Kudos to everybody in the administration that did that arm wrestling with OMB to get this proposal in the shape that it is. There are a lot of people that worked behind the scenes to get it this far.
You bring up a good topic going into the disconnect between these legislators and the boots on the ground. The legislators don't speak fire language. At the end of the day, they have never walked a single step. The boots they are wearing on the ground there, the frontline people are wearing every day. I can understand it being difficult to convey that message in a meaningful way that these congressional representatives would understand. Is that one of these challenges that you are facing?
A few years ago, they didn't know that this workforce was out there. That is the truth. The first time I went up on the hill quite some years ago, nobody knew who we were. They didn't know we were out there. We had to explain every time we sat in an office what we did that we worked for the Federal government and the issues that we saw. People are standing up and taking ownership of their careers. They are at the breaking point where they are going to stand up and say something instead of being quiet professionals have made the change, but it is still hard. We were still explaining the barriers that we have.
Look at where people sit, West Coast versus Midwest to East Coast. I find it amazing the amount of education that has taken place and needs to continue to take place. I see Muñoz. It is important for firefighters to get out there on the hill because they don't know. We built a culture over decades of if a reporter talks to you, tell them to go to your supervisor and hide in the hills.
We are better or worse. I love the idea of that, but what it has done is set up no knowledge of what it is that our Federal folks sacrifice. Fire seasons have transitioned to fire years, and the response areas have changed into communities burning down and protecting life and property more than wilderness areas fire, with a couple of folks doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that. It is full-on triage at a catastrophic level. The Department of Defense has said, “US wildland fires are one of the biggest threats to the US. It is time to support the crap out of it and ensure that we are recruiting and retaining the best and brightest civilian operators that, in my opinion, exist in this country.”
Wildland Firefighters Pay: Wildland fires are one of the biggest threats to the US now. It's time to support and ensure that we are recruiting and retaining the best and brightest civilian operators that exist in this country.
It is one of the largest professional firefighting organizations in the world. Why aren't we treated like professionals? Over the decades, we are finally starting to get that ball rolling. The people reading this don't understand that you are only a firefighter when you are on the ground, but you are an unskilled laborer when you are working.
There is some gravity behind that cynicism there. It is a lot of truth, and it sucks. Now we are getting treated like professionals or starting to get treated like professionals, like a professional firefighting workforce. As far as some other things that are going to be big topics and the elephant in the room questions regarding this pay proposal, let's talk about dispatch. This is going to be the hard one. Have you guys heard anything about dispatchers being included in this?
There was a summit held to discuss this further. There have been multiple efforts across the board. NFFE, Grassroots, and 1,000% dispatch are part of the fire family. We are advocating for the inclusion of all fire, regardless of the support mechanism from training to dispatch into all of this movement, the pay, benefits, and 6C.
I have heard rumors that dispatch is going to be included, but fire needs to be included. It is a system. It is not operators on the ground. It is the people that facilitate firefighters getting to the smoke report, the people that facilitate the training that people take on and take to move up the ladder. It’s a system. It is not just people in the trucks getting to the incident. It is everyone supporting them to successfully get to the incident and walk away from the incident or deal with something crappy that happens during the incident.
When you are fighting a logistical thing of logistical battle, fire is. If you can't communicate or move things logistically, you are not going to win that battle. Sorry, it is no point. Let's put it into context. If you are an IC-5, IC-4, or IC-3, it doesn't matter what level of IC you are. Try and run a fire without dispatch. You can't do it. It is my opinion that they should be 100% included.
They didn't announce it. We pushed them on it. They immediately were quizzical like, “Dispatch isn't in it.” The person who made the decision did say, “The line had to be drawn somewhere.” Consistently, on every single call, we have been pushing back that the line should never have been drawn there. The people that don't get it drew a line. We are optimistic that we are going to get dispatch in there at some point. I'm not sure how. There have been no commitments from the agency on it, but it is not a battle that we are yielding on at all. We have heard you all loud and clear.
It is the same with Grassroots. We have consistently and regularly pushed for the inclusion of dispatch into this series. We may not have publicly done the best job of messaging that, but we have a 100% of the time pushed for the inclusion of dispatch into this 0456.
As far as any other hot-button concerns that we have been hearing from the community and its relation to this budget proposal, what else are some other details if you have them rough details? We said earlier, “This is not a guarantee. This is what we have been briefed on.” The documentation hasn't come out yet, so we don't have anything finite to go off of as proof. However, what about something like retirement? There was a lot of talk out there about your overtime being included in your retirement and hazard pay. I don't know if you have heard anything about that and if you can confirm or deny any of that, but what is your opinion on that?
It is Grassroots direction to continue to advocate for the inclusion of hazard pay and/or overtime towards retirement benefit calculations. That is part of our direction moving forward, but it is not a part of anything on the table. It is a direct focus area of Grassroots for 2023 until we see it happen.
Wildland Firefighters Pay: It's Grassroots’ direction to continue to advocate for the inclusion of hazard pay and/or overtime towards retirement benefit calculations.
What about the NFFE side of the house?
It is the same for NFFE. We are also pushing hard for the temp buyback in 2023. That has a good shot of passing, but that is not the agency doing any gifting. That is going to be Congress. Overtime should be part of your high three. If it is okay, I wanted to talk a little bit about mental health and housing. Luke said earlier, “We are on the same page with respect to that.” The Infrastructure Bill had put quite a bit of change toward that initiative. From the NFFE side of the house, we pushed hard to have what is a pre-decisional type of early involvement and a seat at the table to build that program.
After several months of me forcefully asking, they said, “We will put NFFE on it.” Mysteriously, things didn't get scheduled. We weren't invited to meetings. I don't know if there is a fully baked program out there on mental health that we are going to be learning about in the next few months. What I do know is that we have been invited, and Grassroots, luckily, has, to a summit that is coming up with quite a few stakeholders in April 2023. That is solely about mental health. NFFE is going to participate in that. We will be sending one person. We will try and get more.
What we want to do is negotiate this program at the bargaining table wherever possible to supplement. The money is huge, but it matters how it is being used. We are concerned that it seems to be dealing with the problems after they arise. We want to see a whole lot more for prevention. That overlaps with other issues that we are going to be bargaining in the master agreement, the fire article, schedules, time off, and R&R. It patches into work-life balance. This is a budget that works great for a lot of our less senior firefighters, but for folks that are mid-career, we are going to have to work a lot more benefits through the master agreement for a lot of those folks. That is NFFE bail there. That is not Congress.
I will say about the comprehensive health and well-being program from my perspective. I wish we had one of the subcommittee members for the comprehensive health and well-being pillar two for Grassroots. They have put some of the best people that I could ever hope for in charge of building these programs, but it does take time to build these programs.
They have fantastic people in place within the agencies. They are maintaining dialogue and inviting the right people, like the April 14th, 2023 meeting. It is not going to be perfect right away. Federal employees should be pleased with the folks that have been put in charge of building this foundation of comprehensive health and well-being. I am pleased with the process and effort that is going on. There is a lot to figure out and learn to be able to spread the word.
The foundation is there. The devil is in the details.
We are building the plane as we are flying it.
On the housing stuff, there was a question we asked in our initial meeting, “Is that going to be only to catch up on deferred maintenance?” Fun fact, there is $250 million backed up in deferred maintenance. We got $50 million. That is a fifth of what we need. My understanding is that it is going to be for maintenance, not for new construction, which is not what we have been pushing for. We want maintenance, but there are some of these buildings that need to be raised.
Several years ago, I was at the NFFE Training Center in Southern Maryland with a bunch of Wildland Firefighters who came for their first steward training. We were kicking back after class, drinking beers. They were telling me about the rats, leaky roofs, and busted pipes. I was like, “This is how you guys are living.” That settled with me. We started knowing that we were going to go into contract bargaining in 2023. I started researching it and picking apart what our possibilities might be to fix this. Max told me not to be humble. I will say it. NFFE got this $50 million. We had asked for OPM’s help with the housing issues. I started asking for conversations with people at OMB on housing in 2022.
We finally got this discussion with the right person at OMB. I told them your stories and what I heard when we were sitting and drinking beers. I said, “This is hurting our ability not to retain but also to recruit. We need this money.” She heard us. That was perfect timing because she was able to take our survey results that all of you provided. In some of my legal research, she went and talked about it with their office of general counsel. She was able to make the sale to her higher-ups to slide this $50 million in at the last minute for Forest Service.
That was no easy get, but we did it. It was thanks in large part to all of you responding to that survey and helping me get the most compelling stories to get through to these people who came to this call with prepared comments ready to blow me off. I was bothered by that. We got $50 million. This is great, but it is not enough either. It is more than what we would have had. I'm happy with it. We represent folks in Park Service too. We got them involved. I made sure that we shouted out the interior when we were having that discussion.
With all these other things implemented in this budget proposal, the last elephant in the room is a hot-button topic now that I think about it because I forgot about it and brought myself back to it. It is about wage grade. With the paying classification attached to this proposal, where are we looking with the wage-grade folks because we need those dozers out there? We need all those wage-grade folks in the field, and they are a part of us as the Wildland Firefighting workforce, dispatchers, Hotshots, and everybody else who is operational. Where do they stand in this whole thing if we can answer that?
I don't know any intel on that one. It is something that our leaders have asked in our phone calls. We don't have those details yet. Lucas, have you heard anything?
We are pushing for it in the same form and fashion we pushed for dispatch. What we have been told is that the pay raises and the benefits aren't necessarily tied to the series and the classification. The considerations are there and will be potentially available for folks outside. Wage grade, militia, and a lot of these pay provisions are being proposed in a manner that is going to benefit folks inside and outside of fire wage grade, but we need clarification. I'm with the vet on that. It is another point that needs clarification.
One of those things is this conversation can't happen behind closed doors on Capitol Hill. It has to include the boots on the ground and all forms of that. Everybody needs to be represented. If they are going to roll out something, everybody needs a say in what they need. This isn't one operational Federal Wildland Firefighter thing. It is many other tertiary and quandary things. The more people we can get raising a stink about it and emailing their representatives or making calls, the better. Joining Grassroots, NFFE, or both of them, that is going to be pivotal to our success and your success for the boots on the ground that are reading this. It is up to us.
I was going to add to that. I try to explain to people that we are able to get on the hill, talk to our representatives and the administration, and make those relationships, but none of this happens without everybody. Our organizations are nothing but a tool. If nobody is going to pick up that tool and learn how to use it, not a lot is going to get done. If you get a whole lot of people picking up a lot of tools, you can cut a lot of lines, and you can get a lot of work done.
That is what it is all about. It is getting everybody involved. I can't stress it enough. Everybody has to be their advocate. We are going to be your advocates, but you have to be part of this. You have to step up. You have to write letters. Be part of one of these organizations or both. Start your own. I don't care whatever you got to do but make things happen. I have spent a lot of years sitting around bitching, also. I finally realized, “If you are going to eat, you’ve got to go get some food. Nobody is going to do it for you.”
Everybody has to be their own advocate.
You can't present a problem without a possible solution. An interesting thing to tie into what you are saying there as far as the third party, like people that don't have any skin in this Federal game, pay classification, retirement, and all the mental health stuff. It gets oftentimes overlooked. We have community supporters from outside of the Federal agencies like Cal Fire. I know a lot of Cal Fire folks, and municipal departments support these pieces of legislation. Who are some of those other organizations that are supporting us directly? Maybe indirectly promoting our cause, not necessarily in a financial context. Who are some of those folks out there?
There are some smaller organizations that support Wildland Firefighters in general. A lot of us know them. We could go through a list of names. Personally, people that have reached out to me are smaller organizations like Rip-N-Lips and Hopshot-Up. Those community organizations are important because they bring the people around them to one place. That empowers people to get involved right there. It gives us the opportunity to speak to a lot of people in one place and get people involved.
Those are important, but we need to look at the bigger picture. Everybody in this country should have some investment in this. Where does our water come from? Our water comes from our natural resources and forests. These cities are supplied with water by our forests. If we don't have firefighters protecting our forests, we are not going to have water. That is the basics. We have towns burning up because we don't have enough skilled Wildland Firefighters up there. It is not unskilled labor. We know that. It is time for all of us to stand up and explain to people what we do, or not what I do anymore, but what they do.
We have all been there and done that. We have done a little bit of time in the field for my particular context. The rest of everybody else out there who are part of Grassroots and NFFE are still even active. That is huge.
I want to add to Max's sentiment. We have two competing objectives that have come from the ten-year wildland fire strategy and multiple other publications. There is a proactive need for true hazardous fuels movement and a prescribed fire workforce, and a workforce that manages land. We have an immediate need for a robust, flexible, and fluid suppression workforce. The expectation is that your robust, flexible, and fluid suppression resource becomes year-round to complete two competing objectives.
There is not enough time in the year. We need to advocate for the land management side and suppression side. They need to be not separate, but the priorities need to be inverse of each other, where you got your suppression operators who are training to operate and deal with the worst-case scenario. You got people that are in place to be the farm system for the suppression workforce and land management, leadership, and workforce, and start completing this crap because our firefighters are burned out. They are going to continue to be burned out until we have defined the capacity needed to accurately put the right amount of boots on the ground to meet objectives simultaneously.
It is like two sides of Velcro, the hook and the loop side. That is your fire program overall, and it is land management goals. You can't separate them, or else it doesn't work. I got about ten minutes left on my time before I got to jump off. If you guys are cool with it, I can go back through some comments, read a couple, and see if we can answer them to the best of our abilities. Let's take it away. Let's talk about Adam, “As a group has discussed new PDs, many coworkers and I are concerned that they will be used as an opportunity to add duties. It adds to the burnout factor and not meeting the original intent of accurately reflecting our duties.”
Some of my favorite people that I work with in this community are involved in reviewing those position description drafts and pointing out where they fell short. We asked for more time. We got more time. Everybody in the higher levels, like Luke said, within the agency, but also at OPM, wants to get this right. It is hard to get it right. They are dusting off this old 0456 rather than building something from scratch, but they can't copy and paste. That is what they thought they were going to be able to do.
They couldn't do that in the first place because the game had changed many years ago when these PDs were originally written.
They didn't know that until we started telling them. You are leaving this out. This is not a may perform. This is a grade-controlling duty that you should include. Be it if it results in an upgrade. We need to have people paid for the work that they are doing.
We need to have people paid for the work that they're actually doing.
We need the pipeline for upward mobility.
We have been told that the career ladder progression is being incorporated into this. That is huge. We still have major concerns about whether all of the grade-controlling duties are going to be included. The last I heard is we are going to be shown and Grassroots too. I'm hoping that we can get together and coordinate our review of the position descriptions when they come out again and do a joint comment on where it falls short still.
If Grassroots is an approach and we are, I'm going to call you Luke. We are going to coordinate because this is too important. We need all voices and eyeballs to make sure we get this right. What would be an absolute shame is, after all this work, if they come out with a series that still doesn't cut it. What a waste. I feel like this is our chance to get a good series.
I'm from England. I don't even know if it is me per se. The reality is if we get a series that is accurate, you all will be paid more because of the work that you already are doing. You deserve credit for it. You need to have that in your credentials, and it is not happening yet. Stay tuned for that. Hopefully, within the next months, I will have more to report through our various source communication methods. Our leaders have been good about getting the latest and greatest out on Instagram and Twitter. Watch there for whatever I have to share. That is how it comes out.
That ties into the next question that I'm going to ask to follow up with the comparisons between the BIL, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, and this new pay scale in the budget proposal. A lot of people out are pissed that OT does not apply to that 50% or $20,000 cap. Let's try and explain this sliding scale a little bit more finitely to where we can say, “That 36% of the GS-3 level is stretched out across the sliding scale up to GS-15.” Since that 50% bonus of your base was not included in your OT rate, this one would be because it is a base pay thing. I don’t know how to put that into context better. I'm sure someone else could.
It is a paid table that will be permanent, but what is comparable to what the bill offered, and what are the considerations that were included in this graduated scale from 36% to 1.5%? What is the justification for not saying, “The bill was 50% or $20,000? Why wasn't that automatically built into this new special pay table?” We don't know. That is what we are asking for clarification of.
What are the benefits? It accounts for overtime and hazard pay. It accounts for retirement calculations. It potentially reduces the amount of overtime hours needed on a yearly basis to make ends meet and to pay mortgages. There are a lot of pros that I could spout off. What I can say is we have asked for clarification and what was used to come up with 36% to 1.5% on that GS-15 top-end level.
It is a proposal. What inputs can we provide back to be like, “You are not wrong, but this is right? This is what we want to see.” Until I know that, I can't come at folks and say yes or no. I can't say at face value. I support the crap out of the FY24 budget. I'm grateful as crap for the administration's work to get this in a proposal. We still have the opportunity and the chance to vet, verify, field test, and say, “Yes, you are right here, but this is where you are wrong, and this is what we want to see.”
We still have the opportunity to fine-tune it and dial it into what right should look like.
We got to organize, advocate, and get the community together to get this message across, regardless of how we get it across. It does not matter to me. I'm an advocate for advocacy. Join NFEE. Go to the Grassroots website. Do whatever it is that floats your boat, and come together cohesive. We got to be together. We got to push this crap as a community and as a fire family. We can no longer be quiet professionals. It is time to make this crap happen.
We got to, organize, advocate, and get the community together to get this message across.
Getting third-party support. Tell your family, friends, people that are not in fire, Cal Fire, municipal departments, and all your buddies to support the crap out of this.
I want to see the army of moms get involved.
Kids, tell your mom what it is like on the line and see how pissed she gets.
That covers all of the comments. We had one last one about contracting. I don't know if it helps, but contracting is required to pay $15 an hour as the first year, $16.50-plus and $4.80 an hour for health benefits, and a max of 56 hours of paid time off. I don't know if we can go into the contracting sign because I don't know a damn thing about it.
I do know that I can say that a rising tide will raise all ships. I'm sure that it will be fallout benefits for the contractors, state departments, municipal departments, and people that are the have-nots. If we get this across the line, all those other people that are trying to get the same benefits have a playbook for it. I wish I could answer your question, but could you guys speak on that at all?
If you are a contract firefighter at this point, and we get all this stuff done, come on over to the Feds. We need retention and the workforce. You got the skills. If it looks better over here, and hopefully it does. Come on over.
For our long-term goal, we think all of these jobs should be Federal jobs and equivalent across the board. It is more expensive for the taxpayer to pay a contractor through a contracted workforce than having them be Feds. Contracting is tough because we need contractors. We need that help. We want as many people on the cover of Federal service as possible. We are worried that the agency might be contracting out a little bit more than what is needed. We are worried about losing those FTE slots. It is tough. This is inherently governmental work at the end of the day.
I don't think I’m going to read the contractors from the other side of that argument. I don't think you can personally. I'm not talking about Federal lands. I'm talking about your state projects, private projects, and infrastructure projects. There are still going to be tons and craploads of work out there because it is all accomplishing the same goal of hazardous fuels reduction.
Define capacity and then see where the tools can best be used. Once you define capacity, then we know how to best use contractors. They are a fantastic resource. They are not going away. If we don't define capacity and create systems that adequately and accurately use people for the best purpose they are available for, then we are going to be in the same spot we are now.
You need something quantifiable there.
I’m not talking to anyone in this interview, but it has been described as the elephant in the room. I want to know the capacity required for a fluid, flexible, and healthy Federal firefighting suppression workforce, along with the capacity needed to provide for land management and hazardous fuels reduction across tools in the toolbox.
Last but not least, I got to jam here soon. I know you guys got to jam too. Leslie asked a great question here. Let's take that and not the hire-the-contractor part. Let’s turn that into the Federal context, the 37.5 cap. What is the progress with that? Is there any language whatsoever about that? That is a BS rule.
There is a workaround, but I don't know how well it is used or accessed. The Land Management Workforce Flexibility Act should allow for the hiring of folks after the age of 37 into permanent positions. There are complexities involved that I don't have the expertise to answer. The option is there, and we should take anyone that wants to come to work.
It is how much time you have with the Federal government as a temp employee that can count towards that. Don't quote me on that, but I'm sure that is how that works. If you are a contractor and trying to come in after 37, I have to agree with you, Luke. We should be taking anybody that knows how to do the work that wants to work.
That expertise and skills are perishable over time. The longer you are out of the game, the faster they deteriorate. Get them in.
Stay tuned. Everyone is concentrating on what is here, but we also have to be looking at what is several years ahead, what right looks like, and how we are going to get there. We can poke holes at anything we want, but right now, this crap is historic. It has not happened. It is amazing. We got to push for it and advocate for it. We got to move on to the next division.
Our work is far from complete.
If anybody is going to be in Washington, DC, on April 12th, 2023, and wants to meet up with us, we are all going to be getting together to speak about this to some congressional folks.
Is that going to be televised by any chance or streamed anywhere?
I don’t know. Are you going to be there?
Let me pack my bags and all my equipment here.
There will be some media coverage, but I'm not sure who exactly.
We are trying to get as many NFFE Wildland Firefighters into Washington, DC. Grassroots is going to be there. We aligned our schedules intentionally to make this first run at Congress before things start catching fire out there. It is going to be a sustained campaign. We have another NFFE legislative week in the week of June 19th, 2023. We are also going to make another big push with lots of meetings.
For those of you that are interested, get plugged in either for our April 10th through 12th, 2023 event. Locals are supposed to be considering whether their finances allow them to send. One Wildland Firefighter from each local is our goal to get to town April 10th through 12th, 2023. It is the same for June 2023. We need as many boots as we can get here to share those stories. Not to mention, I want to meet everybody finally, instead of getting emails or texts.
I'm looking forward to hitting the hill with you, Luke.
It will be good. I hate to do it, but I’ve got to get out of here.
This is a big topic. There are a lot of complexities and nuances to it. Luke, Yvette, and Max thank you for being on the show and giving us an update from actual congressional leaders, and being that bridge between that upper echelon of leadership, government, and the boots on the ground. Everybody appreciates it. You guys are doing a hell of a job. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thanks, Brandon, Max, and Yvette. I'm personally trying to keep up. I appreciate the opportunity.
Happy St. Patrick's Day, everybody.
Thank you so much.
If Steve-O is out there, I will still beat your ass up a hill.
Thanks for tuning in on another episode. We will see what happens when this legislation comes out. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it.
Thank you. Until next time.
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There we go, ladies and gentlemen. Another episode of the show is in the books with my good friends from the Grassroots Wildlife Firefighters and the National Federation of Federal Employees. The big news is on the horizon. I'm pumped to see what the actual language says when the law comes out or when it is written down on paper. You get the idea of what I'm saying. Time will tell what the finite details are of those particulars. I am pumped about that. It has been a long time coming.
Between these two organizations, I do want to say that over the past several years, more stuff has happened on Capitol Hill than in the last years of being a quiet professional. These movements do work and I will 100% say that this isn't the old school anymore. This isn't one of those things where the shut up and dig mentality is going to get this across the finish line. I encourage everybody out there reading to be vocal.
If you can join the NFFE union, or if you can do a solid and go and support or join if you will. You don't have to join. They don't pay well or anything like that. It is information for free if you want it. If you want to help support the Grassroots cause, go over to www.GrassrootsWildlandFirefighters.com and check it out. It is the same thing with NFFE. Get in front of your rep and see what you can do about standing up and making your voices heard because that is the only way this is going to change. You can also join both. That is the awesome part. This is all you, a reflection of the boots on the ground. Thank you, everybody, for changing and changing for good.
Other than that, I hope everybody is doing well. You will read a lot more from me here. I got some interesting stuff coming along the pipeline as far as expansions to the website and new tools that we can utilize for you folks out there. Hopefully, it works well and gets a chance. You fill out that survey. I take constructive feedback quite well. If you want to read something different, hit me up.
A special shout-out to our sponsors. We got Mystery Ranch purveyors of the finest damn packs in the fire game. We got Hotshot Brewing, kickass coffee for a kickass cause. You can go over to www.HotshotBrewing.com and check out their full assortment of everything they have to offer. We also have The A.S.S. Movement, the Anti-Surface Shitting Movement. Booze is a hell of a human. He is a great dude with great organization and a hilarious message that is real. Go to www.TheFireWild.com and check out The A.S.S. Movement.
Last but not least, we have Bethany over at the AWE, The American Wildfire Experience. Go over to www.WildFire-Experience.org and check out all they have to offer. If you are looking for those grants, there is your chance. Check them out, and you will see when they are coming out and when they will be issued in the details. With that, welcome back, and thank you. You all know the drill. Stay safe and stay savage. Peace.
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